<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Ok then we should allow all the cool progressive people who buy small scooters from scooterville to ride on the sidewalks too----yeah let's just ride r bikes any way we want with out any rules like----ya know like J walking which really isn't a problem but somehow I bet there is legislation in place at the city level. Just walk your bike---whats the big deal.</DIV>
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<DIV>Matt<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV><BR></FONT> </DIV></DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 10/7/09, missoulagov-request@cmslists.com <I><missoulagov-request@cmslists.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: missoulagov-request@cmslists.com <missoulagov-request@cmslists.com><BR>Subject: MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 7<BR>To: missoulagov@cmslists.com<BR>Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 12:00 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>Send MissoulaGov mailing list submissions to<BR> <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov@cmslists.com" ymailto="mailto:missoulagov@cmslists.com">missoulagov@cmslists.com</A><BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR> <A href="http://www.cmslists.com/mailman/listinfo/missoulagov" target=_blank>http://www.cmslists.com/mailman/listinfo/missoulagov</A><BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR> <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov-request@cmslists.com" ymailto="mailto:missoulagov-request@cmslists.com">missoulagov-request@cmslists.com</A><BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR> <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov-owner@cmslists.com"
ymailto="mailto:missoulagov-owner@cmslists.com">missoulagov-owner@cmslists.com</A><BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of MissoulaGov digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (amy casamassa)<BR> 2. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (Ethel MacDonald)<BR> 3. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (David V. Gray)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:29:51 -0600<BR>From: amy casamassa <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=amytcas@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:amytcas@gmail.com">amytcas@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks<BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov@cmslists.com"
ymailto="mailto:missoulagov@cmslists.com">missoulagov@cmslists.com</A><BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=2f9b529f0910061229v69873d67pdb9a3149a6351c2c@mail.gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:2f9b529f0910061229v69873d67pdb9a3149a6351c2c@mail.gmail.com">2f9b529f0910061229v69873d67pdb9a3149a6351c2c@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<BR><BR>I completely agree with the statement below from <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kjerrim@missoula.com" ymailto="mailto:kjerrim@missoula.com">kjerrim@missoula.com</A>. In<BR>addition, I think trying to paint cyclists as toddler-smashing,<BR>downtown-ruining, menaces to society is just plain silly. Accidents do<BR>happen due to people not paying attention, not knowing the rules, or just<BR>plain not caring about others, but for the most part we live in a pretty<BR>tolerant place. I consider myself
progressive, but I think a silly road to<BR>go down is believing that legislating tolerance and courteousness will<BR>really stop intolerance or discourteousness.<BR><BR><BR>I appreciate what the BID is attempting to do for bikes from Broadway to the<BR>X's, but these ordinances that pertain to behavior have got to stop. Bums<BR>and bikes are not the reason why downtowns are failing. Are we really<BR>pretending that there is any truth to that? You could strategically place<BR>proximity mines in front of Super Walmart and people would still fight to<BR>get in there. We all know that a large reason downtowns are failing<BR>isbecause it costs considerably more to buy something from asmalllocal<BR>business than it does to buy it from a box store. Despite the fact that I<BR>know that, I make a conscious effort to buy locally. There are many reasons<BR>why, not the least of which being that I love this town and the
character<BR>that comes with it. I find that the things I buy may cost more downtown,<BR>but are more special (and let?s face it, less toxic) than things I can find<BR>in a box store. Last year all the gifts I bought for Christmas came from<BR>stores downtown or south of the bridge on Higgins. I am willing to spend<BR>more to keep businesses alive in Missoula. I feel like Missoula isn?t an<BR>over-regulated place and I think that means we trust our citizenry to make<BR>choices with the community in mind. I understand that the BID and City<BR>Council are working towards making downtown a desirable and convenient place<BR>to shop, but I don?t think the way to do that is to make downtown Missoula a<BR>whitewashed, cutsey-bootsie, over-regulated, Park City-esque mountain town.<BR>Which is what I see happening with these laws to stop people from doing<BR>things that a portion of the population finds annoying.
Not<BR>dangerous-annoying. If that is the case, then those downtown businesses can<BR>kiss my dollars goodbye.<BR><BR>Amy T. Cas<BR><BR>On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:38 PM, <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kjerrim@missoula.com" ymailto="mailto:kjerrim@missoula.com">kjerrim@missoula.com</A>> wrote:<BR>I think the whole point I am hearing raised is enough with all these<BR>ordinances pertaining to behavioral problems that some find annoying but<BR>others may not.<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/36edd10b/attachment.html" target=_blank>http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/36edd10b/attachment.html</A>><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:40:20 -0600<BR>From: Ethel MacDonald <<A
href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ethelmacd@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:ethelmacd@gmail.com">ethelmacd@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks<BR>To: Pam Walzer <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pamwalzer@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:pamwalzer@gmail.com">pamwalzer@gmail.com</A>><BR>Cc: <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov@cmslists.com" ymailto="mailto:missoulagov@cmslists.com">missoulagov@cmslists.com</A><BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=49c658a60910061240q56f2781arb5136131ce48a667@mail.gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:49c658a60910061240q56f2781arb5136131ce48a667@mail.gmail.com">49c658a60910061240q56f2781arb5136131ce48a667@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Well-said, Pam! Remind me to send you $$ when you have to go through
the<BR>re-election hassle. We need people like you on CC who see more than one<BR>side of things and try to work together in peace (and fortunately, most CC<BR>members do, in my opinion.) Ethel<BR><BR>On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Pam Walzer <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pamwalzer@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:pamwalzer@gmail.com">pamwalzer@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>> All,<BR>><BR>> Thank you all for this discussion - and those past. I rarely chime in,<BR>> rather I prefer listen to what this participating community is saying. Much<BR>> has been said in this conversation that I finally would like to add to or<BR>> clarify.<BR>><BR>> To put into perspective how much the City of Missoula collects in taxes on<BR>> residential properties, and therefore what a "large tax break" that Jeremy<BR>> Hood suggested would look like, I took a gander at my last year's property<BR>>
tax bill. I have a modest home in the Westside. Probably overpriced due to<BR>> its location and very grateful to have purchased it when it was truly<BR>> affordable. I'm guessing it's tue, open market value is now on the high end<BR>> of today's "affordable" to low side of median price for Missoula.<BR>><BR>> For all that the City of Missoula provides me: fire, police, streets - with<BR>> or without potholes, traffic lights, snow and leaf removal, parks, open<BR>> space protection, zoning protection to make sure a tire manufacturer doesn't<BR>> open up next door to me, on and on .... I paid $403.08 last year in *CITY*taxes, or $33.59 per month. That's less than my satellite TV bill! I also<BR>> gladly paid an additional $71.25 per year in a permenant SID to pay for<BR>> extra neighborhood street and alley lighting - although much of that goes to<BR>> Northwestern to rent the light poles. So for less than $40/month in
taxes to<BR>> the City of Missoula, I get all the services, tangible and intangible, that<BR>> the city provides to its citizens, businesses and visitors (who, by the<BR>> way, pay NO direct taxes to the city).<BR>><BR>> To follow one of Jeremy's ideas (which is similar to many others about the<BR>> value of tax breaks) - let's give owners of rental properties a break in<BR>> their city taxes so they can pass it off in lower rentals. Reducing the<BR>> rent on property like mine $40/month is not going to make it any more<BR>> affordable to rent (or even own). In the mean time, the city would no longer<BR>> have all of those small, individual revenues to provide for those myriad of<BR>> services we all need or want. If we, as a community, want all of those<BR>> things that the city provides, then who is going to pay? Increase the taxes<BR>> on owner occupied homes? Increase the property taxes on businesses? As
much<BR>> as I want to do what I can support local business, I'm pretty sure the<BR>> courts would find it a constitutional problem with the city taxing Home<BR>> Depot more than Boyce Lumber, or REI or more than Trailhead. If you want to<BR>> support local, than do just that - spend your dollars at Quality Supply,<BR>> Orange St. Food Farm, downtown stores, etc... We are fortunate that we do<BR>> have numerous high quality and reasonably priced local and Montana based<BR>> businesses to choose from.<BR>><BR>> So how can the city solve some of the problems like real or perceived<BR>> blight on Brooks corridor or West Broadway or Russell St.? As Geoff Badenoch<BR>> said, the city has the MRA to encourage and assist in the redevelopement of<BR>> areas like these around the city. But private business has to be willing and<BR>> feel that a profit can be made. Last night we passed the zoning ordinance<BR>> rewrite. A
small part of that document provides zoning tools that will make<BR>> it easier for developers to do mixed use development. During the West<BR>> Broadway charette process, the consultants said that there was a significant<BR>> impediment to reaching the vision that the community saw for the area - we<BR>> did not have zoning that would allow the implementation of that vision.<BR>> Now we have that. Will West Broadway suddenly become the vision, with tree<BR>> lined streets with landscaped medians and lots of pedestrians and small<BR>> shops with apartments above with everyone smiling and happy and well<BR>> dressed? No, it will be a long evolutionary process, one that requires the<BR>> business community and the city government to continue to work together. The<BR>> city can't do it alone, but we can help the process. By having a plan and<BR>> providing tools with zoning and the MRA, we are helping the process
along.<BR>><BR>> So what can the city do to improve the economy in Missoula? Besides what<BR>> Geoff B. and Jim McGraff have already listed that we actually do, I believe<BR>> we keep on doing what we do so well - keep Missoula a wonderful place to<BR>> live and do business. That means worrying about the minutia of daily living:<BR>> dogs at large, bears in dumpsters, cars speeding in neighborhoods, bikes<BR>> "speeding" on sidewalks, cars not providing bikes a safe share of the<BR>> road, bikes stopping or not at stop signs, people driving while distracted<BR>> by cell phones, boulevard tree maintenance. Some people find these things a<BR>> threat to their safety and well-being, others feel that they have a right<BR>> to act how they personally feel is safe and/or appropriate, others feel that<BR>> these are silly common sense or manners things and that the city should stay<BR>> out of it. What a wonderful society
we would be it we ALL lived by the<BR>> golden rule. Very few, if any, laws would be necessary. But look into your<BR>> hearts and your actions, the actions of your neighbors, and "that idiot down<BR>> the street" and realize that essentially all we do on council is to try to<BR>> protect your and your neighbor's quality of life in the City of Missoula.<BR>> There is at least one thing, probably many, that the city regulates (or<BR>> doesn't!) that you feel is absolutely necessary. Likewise, I'm sure there is<BR>> at least one thing, probably many, that you think is a complete waste of<BR>> time and energy - but that just happens to be something that someone else<BR>> feels is extremely important for them. So the city council spends a lot of<BR>> time deciding how we, with very limited resources, can keep Missoula a<BR>> wonderful place to live and work while it grows and evolves over the years.<BR>><BR>> Thank you
for your patience in my ruminating. It's obvious why I rarely<BR>> participate.<BR>><BR>> Pam Walzer,<BR>> Missoula City Council<BR>> Alderwoman, Ward 2<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> -----Please delete extra content when replying to messages------<BR>><BR>> Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But<BR>> posts to this list may be entered into the public record.<BR>> Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org<BR>> List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com<<A href="http://www.cedarmountainsoftware.com/" target=_blank>http://www.cedarmountainsoftware.com/</A>>.<BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>"Apathy is a vice." Oscar Wilde<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A
href="http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/244130d5/attachment-0001.htm" target=_blank>http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/244130d5/attachment-0001.htm</A>><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 19:31:39 -0600<BR>From: "David V. Gray" <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hdgray@modwest.com" ymailto="mailto:hdgray@modwest.com">hdgray@modwest.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks<BR>To: "'amy casamassa'" <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=amytcas@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:amytcas@gmail.com">amytcas@gmail.com</A>>, <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov@cmslists.com" ymailto="mailto:missoulagov@cmslists.com">missoulagov@cmslists.com</A>><BR>Message-ID:
<010701ca46ed$eb3ac050$c1b040f0$@com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>God this is the such a beautiful email. Way to go Amy.<BR><BR><BR><BR>David V. Gray<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov-bounces@cmslists.com" ymailto="mailto:missoulagov-bounces@cmslists.com">missoulagov-bounces@cmslists.com</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov-bounces@cmslists.com" ymailto="mailto:missoulagov-bounces@cmslists.com">missoulagov-bounces@cmslists.com</A>] On Behalf Of amy casamassa<BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 1:30 PM<BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=missoulagov@cmslists.com" ymailto="mailto:missoulagov@cmslists.com">missoulagov@cmslists.com</A><BR>Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks<BR><BR><BR><BR>I completely agree with the statement below from <A
href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kjerrim@missoula.com" ymailto="mailto:kjerrim@missoula.com">kjerrim@missoula.com</A>. In<BR>addition, I think trying to paint cyclists as toddler-smashing,<BR>downtown-ruining, menaces to society is just plain silly. Accidents do<BR>happen due to people not paying attention, not knowing the rules, or just<BR>plain not caring about others, but for the most part we live in a pretty<BR>tolerant place. I consider myself progressive, but I think a silly road to<BR>go down is believing that legislating tolerance and courteousness will<BR>really stop intolerance or discourteousness. <BR><BR><BR>I appreciate what the BID is attempting to do for bikes from Broadway to the<BR>X's, but these ordinances that pertain to behavior have got to stop. Bums<BR>and bikes are not the reason why downtowns are failing. Are we really<BR>pretending that there is any truth to that? You
could strategically place<BR>proximity mines in front of Super Walmart and people would still fight to<BR>get in there. We all know that a large reason downtowns are failing is<BR>because it costs considerably more to buy something from a small local<BR>business than it does to buy it from a box store. Despite the fact that I<BR>know that, I make a conscious effort to buy locally. There are many reasons<BR>why, not the least of which being that I love this town and the character<BR>that comes with it. I find that the things I buy may cost more downtown,<BR>but are more special (and let's face it, less toxic) than things I can find<BR>in a box store. Last year all the gifts I bought for Christmas came from<BR>stores downtown or south of the bridge on Higgins. I am willing to spend<BR>more to keep businesses alive in Missoula. I feel like Missoula isn't an<BR>over-regulated place and I think that means we trust
our citizenry to make<BR>choices with the community in mind. I understand that the BID and City<BR>Council are working towards making downtown a desirable and convenient place<BR>to shop, but I don't think the way to do that is to make downtown Missoula a<BR>whitewashed, cutsey-bootsie, over-regulated, Park City-esque mountain town.<BR>Which is what I see happening with these laws to stop people from doing<BR>things that a portion of the population finds annoying. Not<BR>dangerous-annoying. If that is the case, then those downtown businesses can<BR>kiss my dollars goodbye. <BR><BR>Amy T. Cas<BR><BR>On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:38 PM, <<A href="http://us.mc529.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kjerrim@missoula.com" ymailto="mailto:kjerrim@missoula.com">kjerrim@missoula.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>I think the whole point I am hearing raised is enough with all these<BR>ordinances pertaining to behavioral problems that some find annoying
but<BR>others may not.<BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/abfdfacb/attachment-0001.htm" target=_blank>http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/abfdfacb/attachment-0001.htm</A>><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>-------Please delete extra content when replying to messages--------<BR>Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But posts to this list may be entered into the public record.<BR>Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org<BR>List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com. <BR><BR>End of MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 7<BR>******************************************<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>