[MissoulaGov] Dave's proposal is to make it a criminal offense to refuse the test punishable with a $300 fine

Mon Feb 22 15:58:46 MST 2010

To answer you Bob it is actually more complicated. I personally believe in de-powering drinking for youth. Lowering the drinking age as the first step produced results that no one would accept because any possible transition time was too difficult. I believe all states are 21 now. However it is clear that show by many other countries that do not have the problems we do that a lower drinking age does work. The majority of them are age 18. We need to approach it differently than an educational thing. It has to be built into society. Removing MIP's but restricting sales would allow bars serving as venues to openly allow 18+ audience, make it acceptable to ask for designated drivers, still allow removal of alcohol from minors under prior agreements, and allow consumption to learned as a social thing instead of a binge thing you do hiding from authority which leads to problems later.

While I think removing MIP's is good I actually believe is a structured response. First allow under the guidance of legal guardians the consumption for 16+ years of age and make it aparantly clear to offer drinks at resteraunts etc to the whole parties with parents permission. When these kids reach age 18 remove MIP's as punishment but keep sales strict. When they turn 21 then lower the drinking age each year by a year until you reach 18. That way you ingrain behavior, conumption patterns, and practice into growing up. You do not have to teach someone such things in school if everyone else knows. True you may have some out of state people that treat it differently but that is a minor issue by large comparrison. Also as things progress these minors and eventually not minors will not be afraid to use public transit to go to and fro because unless they are plastered out of their minds they ward no warrent for trouble. 

Susan Flanagin

There are places for people to hang out. There are youth centers. They are typically occupied by the young people that do not want to be at their home and already have substance abuse problems. No one else wants to go there. You are catagorizing young adults as playmates that are too young to make decision or want to be part of the social crowds they are attarcted too. This does not and never has worked. The location has nothing to do with the drinking habit either from what I know. Plus many of the current places have religious affiliations which keeps some way and attracts others.

What would work? Where should they go? Where everyone else is at, where something is happening. They want to be part of the community. They want to attend venues that happen to be bars. They want to enjoy themselves at Caras park. We should let them instead of pretending to give give them the experience vaicariously through some mediocure experience they do not care about. I am sure you can point out have music shows at other places etc but realisticly there is no money unless the latest band comes to town to fund shows. You almost have to have them in bars because there is no funding for these touring groups. If you did what I talked about earlier it would boost local economy as well as change social situations while breeding responbility. The other things we keep discussing are good ways to keep repeating failures we have already experienced. 

What is there to do about suicide rates and the of age drunken drivers?

Once again start young not with hopeful education but a reality change. Eventually the old patterns will fade away as public transit and more responible people populate the drinking ages. Oh but suicide rates and this and that...

Maybe it has less to do with alcohol and more to do with using alcohol with stimulating facts like more than 80% of the wealth in Montana is owned by less than 10% of the people. 

A piece of information for everyone too look at with drinking ages and bad think tank response for US problems that have never been adopted because of suspected failure (I suspect).

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LegalDrinkingAge.html

From: BJaffe at ci.missoula.mt.us
To: thepoe at hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:00:30 -0700
Subject: RE: [MissoulaGov] Dave's proposal is	to	make	it	a	criminal	offense	to refuse the test punishable	with	a $300 fine

I’m curious what you mean by getting rid
of MIP’s?

From: missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com
[mailto:missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Hood

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010
7:40 PM

To: hdgray at modwest.com;
traci at hschiro.com; missoulagov at cmslists.com

Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Dave's
proposal is to make it a criminal offense to refuse the test punishable with a
$300 fine

Again why do we leap to the
punishment route instead of making it a pleasurable experience? Handing in your
keys is punishment. I mean what if you do not own a car or are not driving and
plan to get drunk? Should we tattoo everyone with a registered car and you have
to either be metal detected head to toe or leave without keys if you are not
driving? This is so 1939. 

What do people have against making social change? What is wrong with public
transit and taking away the development of young binge drinkers by getting rid
of MIP's? Statistically both work from what I understand. 

From: hdgray at modwest.com

To: traci at hschiro.com; missoulagov at cmslists.com

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:29:27 -0700

Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Dave's proposal is to make it a criminal offense to
refuse the test punishable with a $300 fine

I like Traci’s idea
and would take it a step further.  Check in your keys when entering a bar
and take a breathalyzer test to get them back. Fail the test, take a cab. 

Based on the
Missoulian articles lately is appears the drunk drivers creating much of the
problem are young binge drinkers.  This will take a social change to stop.

Having your picture
in the paper and/or posted at city hall with the “most wanted criminals”
pictured next to yours when you get a DUI may help further this cause. A $300
fine for being accused of being intoxicated seams less effective.  If you
drink,  drive and kill someone you could go to jail for life but that does
not seem to stop it from happening.  Society needs to change for
meaningful change to come to Montana’s
DUI rate.

David V. Gray

From:
missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com [mailto:missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com] On Behalf Of Traci Rasmusson

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010
12:36 PM

To: missoulagov at cmslists.com

Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Dave's
proposal is to make it a criminal offense to refuse the test punishable with a
$300 fine

It makes more sense to
me to require breathalyzers at bars so inebriated patrons can be tested before
they get in a car.

Traci

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