[MissoulaGov] Bikes on Sidewalks

Wed Oct 7 18:48:10 MDT 2009

Hi Andrew---

Let me provide some background as well.   I owned and operated Sherpa Mountain Import Company at the corner of Higgins and Broadway from 1997 to 2004.   I rode my bike to work during the dry season and as you say was one of those polite riders giving right of way to pedestrians while on my short cruise up the sidewalk to my store front.    The balance of good riders and problem riders was not at all in balance or self regulated to be safe in my opinion.   Bike riders on the street seem much more in control and have respect of traffic laws and cars.   I noticed bikers who ride on the sidewalks too often do not yeild and are sometimes seen with a dog in tow holding a leash in one hand or a cup of hot coffee.   The downtown business district is very congested at times and you know what Saturday morning looks like on those sidewalks.   Also most business these days have sandwich boards that further restrict the area for pedestrians and
 bikes.  The Montana anotated has no bearing on what the citizens of Missoula decide is safe in their downtown area.   I don't think this discussion is meant to include any areas other than the downtown business district.   I would not ask that the UM institute a no sidewalk policy for bikes.  

Sincerely

Matt

Everest Designs
1.877.754.4287
everestdesigns at yahoo.com
everestdesigns.net

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Andrew Stickney <stickneyal at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Andrew Stickney <stickneyal at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Bikes on Sidewalks
To: "Everest Designs" <everestdesigns at yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 1:41 PM

Hi Matt, 

Regardless of what previous discussions may have implied, bicycle riding on sidewalks is in fact subject to state law and in most circumstances have the same rights and privileges of a pedestrian, including the responsibility to yield to other pedestrians:

http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/61/8/61-8-608.htm (MCA 61-8-808). 

Scooters fall under a different classification - "motor-driven cycles" as defined here:
http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/61/1/61-1-101.htm (MCA 61-1-101)

As Amy said earlier, most bicyclists do in fact yield to pedestrians and walk their bikes when appropriate. We are very aware of our special privileges and do our best to self-regulate our behavior. We do not need any more city ordinances to help us out in this matter - it only increases antagonism and bad feelings.

Sincerely yours,

Andrew Stickney
stickneyal at gmail.com

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Everest Designs <everestdesigns at yahoo.com> wrote:

Ok then we should allow all the cool progressive people who buy small scooters from scooterville to ride on the sidewalks too----yeah let's just ride r bikes any way we want with out any rules like----ya know like J walking which really isn't a problem but somehow I bet there is legislation in place at the city level.     Just walk your bike---whats the big deal.

Matt

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, missoulagov-request at cmslists.com <missoulagov-request at cmslists.com> wrote:

From: missoulagov-request at cmslists.com <missoulagov-request at cmslists.com>
Subject: MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 7
To: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 12:00 PM

Send MissoulaGov mailing list submissions to
    missoulagov at cmslists.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    http://www.cmslists.com/mailman/listinfo/missoulagov
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    missoulagov-request at cmslists.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
    missoulagov-owner at cmslists.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of MissoulaGov digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (amy casamassa)
   2. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (Ethel MacDonald)
   3. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (David V. Gray)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:29:51 -0600
From: amy casamassa <amytcas at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID:
    <2f9b529f0910061229v69873d67pdb9a3149a6351c2c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

I completely agree with the statement below from kjerrim at missoula.com.  In
addition, I think trying to paint cyclists as toddler-smashing,
downtown-ruining, menaces to society is just plain silly.  Accidents do
happen due to people not paying attention, not knowing the rules, or just
plain not caring about others, but for the most part we live in a pretty
tolerant place. I consider myself progressive, but I think a silly road to
go down is believing that legislating tolerance and courteousness will
really stop intolerance or discourteousness.

I appreciate what the BID is attempting to do for bikes from Broadway to the
X's, but these ordinances that pertain to behavior have got to stop.  Bums
and bikes are not the reason why downtowns are failing.  Are we really
pretending that there is any truth to that?  You could strategically place
proximity mines in front of Super Walmart and people would still fight to
get in there.  We all know that a large reason downtowns are failing
isbecause it costs considerably more to buy something from asmalllocal
business than it does to buy it from a box store.  Despite the fact that I
know that, I make a conscious effort to buy locally.  There are many reasons
why, not the least of which being that I love this town and the character
that comes with it.  I find that the things I buy may cost more downtown,
but are more special (and let?s face it, less toxic) than things I can find
in a box store.  Last year all the gifts I bought for Christmas came from
stores downtown or south of the bridge on Higgins.  I am willing to spend
more to keep businesses alive in Missoula.  I feel like Missoula isn?t an
over-regulated place and I think that means we trust our citizenry to make
choices with the community in mind.  I understand that the BID and City
Council are working towards making downtown a desirable and convenient place
to shop, but I don?t think the way to do that is to make downtown Missoula a
whitewashed, cutsey-bootsie, over-regulated, Park City-esque mountain town.
Which is what I see happening with these laws to stop people from doing
things that a portion of the population finds annoying.  Not
dangerous-annoying.  If that is the case, then those downtown businesses can
kiss my dollars goodbye.

Amy T. Cas

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:38 PM, <kjerrim at missoula.com> wrote:
I think the whole point I am hearing raised is enough with all these
ordinances pertaining to behavioral problems that some find annoying but
others may not.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/36edd10b/attachment.html>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:40:20 -0600
From: Ethel MacDonald <ethelmacd at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: Pam Walzer <pamwalzer at gmail.com>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID:
    <49c658a60910061240q56f2781arb5136131ce48a667 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Well-said, Pam!  Remind me to send you $$ when you have to go through the
re-election hassle.  We need people like you on CC who see more than one
side of things and try to work together in peace (and fortunately, most CC
members do, in my opinion.)    Ethel

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Pam Walzer <pamwalzer at gmail.com> wrote:

> All,
>
> Thank you all for this discussion - and those past. I rarely chime in,
> rather I prefer listen to what this participating community is saying. Much
> has been said in this conversation that I finally would like to add to or
> clarify.
>
> To put into perspective how much the City of Missoula collects in taxes on
> residential properties, and therefore what a "large tax break" that Jeremy
> Hood suggested would look like, I took a gander at my last year's property
> tax bill. I have a modest home in the Westside. Probably overpriced due to
> its location and very grateful to have purchased it when it was truly
> affordable. I'm guessing it's tue, open market value is now on the high end
> of today's "affordable" to low side of median price for Missoula.
>
> For all that the City of Missoula provides me: fire, police, streets - with
> or without potholes, traffic lights, snow and leaf removal, parks, open
> space protection, zoning protection to make sure a tire manufacturer doesn't
> open up next door to me, on and on .... I paid $403.08 last year in *CITY*taxes, or $33.59 per month. That's less than my satellite TV bill! I also
> gladly paid an additional $71.25 per year in a permenant SID to pay for
> extra neighborhood street and alley lighting - although much of that goes to
> Northwestern to rent the light poles. So for less than $40/month in taxes to
> the City of Missoula, I get all the services, tangible and intangible, that
> the city provides to its citizens, businesses and visitors (who, by the
> way, pay NO direct taxes to the city).
>
> To follow one of Jeremy's ideas (which is similar to many others about the
> value of tax breaks) - let's give owners of rental properties a break in
> their city taxes so they can pass it off in lower rentals.  Reducing the
> rent on property like mine $40/month is not going to make it any more
> affordable to rent (or even own). In the mean time, the city would no longer
> have all of those small, individual revenues to provide for those myriad of
> services we all need or want. If we, as a community, want all of those
> things that the city provides, then who is going to pay? Increase the taxes
> on owner occupied homes? Increase the property taxes on businesses? As much
> as I want to do what I can support local business, I'm pretty sure the
> courts would find it a constitutional problem with the city taxing Home
> Depot more than Boyce Lumber, or REI or more than Trailhead. If you want to
> support local, than do just that - spend your dollars at Quality Supply,
> Orange St. Food Farm, downtown stores, etc... We are fortunate that we do
> have numerous high quality and reasonably priced local and Montana based
> businesses to choose from.
>
> So how can the city solve some of the problems like real or perceived
> blight on Brooks corridor or West Broadway or Russell St.? As Geoff Badenoch
> said, the city has the MRA to encourage and assist in the redevelopement of
> areas like these around the city. But private business has to be willing and
> feel that a profit can be made. Last night we passed the zoning ordinance
> rewrite. A small part of that document provides zoning tools that will make
> it easier for developers to do mixed use development. During the West
> Broadway charette process, the consultants said that there was a significant
> impediment to reaching the vision that the community saw for the area - we
> did not have zoning that would allow the implementation of that vision.
> Now we have that. Will West Broadway suddenly become the vision, with tree
> lined streets with landscaped medians and lots of pedestrians and small
> shops with apartments above with everyone smiling and happy and well
> dressed? No, it will be a long evolutionary process, one that requires the
> business community and the city government to continue to work together. The
> city can't do it alone, but we can help the process. By having a plan and
> providing tools with zoning and the MRA, we are helping the process along.
>
> So what can the city do to improve the economy in Missoula? Besides what
> Geoff B. and Jim McGraff have already listed that we actually do, I believe
> we keep on doing what we do so well - keep Missoula a wonderful place to
> live and do business. That means worrying about the minutia of daily living:
> dogs at large, bears in dumpsters, cars speeding in neighborhoods, bikes
> "speeding" on sidewalks, cars not providing bikes a safe share of the
> road, bikes stopping or not at stop signs, people driving while distracted
> by cell phones, boulevard tree maintenance. Some people find these things a
> threat to their safety and well-being, others feel that they have a right
> to act how they personally feel is safe and/or appropriate, others feel that
> these are silly common sense or manners things and that the city should stay
> out of it. What a wonderful society we would be it we ALL lived by the
> golden rule. Very few, if any, laws would be necessary. But look into your
> hearts and your actions, the actions of your neighbors, and "that idiot down
> the street" and realize that essentially all we do on council is to try to
> protect your and your neighbor's quality of life in the City of Missoula.
> There is at least one thing, probably many, that the city regulates (or
> doesn't!) that you feel is absolutely necessary. Likewise, I'm sure there is
> at least one thing, probably many, that you think is a complete waste of
> time and energy - but that just happens to be something that someone else
> feels is extremely important for them. So the city council spends a lot of
> time deciding how we, with very limited resources, can keep Missoula a
> wonderful place to live and work while it grows and evolves over the years.
>
> Thank you for your patience in my ruminating. It's obvious why I rarely
> participate.
>
> Pam Walzer,
> Missoula City Council
> Alderwoman, Ward 2
>
> _______________________________________________
> -----Please delete extra content when replying to messages------
>
> Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But
> posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
> Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
> List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com<http://www.cedarmountainsoftware.com/>.
>
>

-- 
"Apathy is a vice."  Oscar Wilde
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/244130d5/attachment-0001.htm>

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 19:31:39 -0600
From: "David V. Gray" <hdgray at modwest.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: "'amy casamassa'" <amytcas at gmail.com>,    <missoulagov at cmslists.com>
Message-ID: <010701ca46ed$eb3ac050$c1b040f0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

God this is the such a beautiful email. Way to go Amy.

David V. Gray

From: missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com
[mailto:missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com] On Behalf Of amy casamassa
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 1:30 PM
To: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks

I completely agree with the statement below from kjerrim at missoula.com.  In
addition, I think trying to paint cyclists as toddler-smashing,
downtown-ruining, menaces to society is just plain silly.  Accidents do
happen due to people not paying attention, not knowing the rules, or just
plain not caring about others, but for the most part we live in a pretty
tolerant place. I consider myself progressive, but I think a silly road to
go down is believing that legislating tolerance and courteousness will
really stop intolerance or discourteousness.    

I appreciate what the BID is attempting to do for bikes from Broadway to the
X's, but these ordinances that pertain to behavior have got to stop.  Bums
and bikes are not the reason why downtowns are failing.  Are we really
pretending that there is any truth to that?  You could strategically place
proximity mines in front of Super Walmart and people would still fight to
get in there.  We all know that a large reason downtowns are failing is
because it costs considerably more to buy something from a small local
business than it does to buy it from a box store.  Despite the fact that I
know that, I make a conscious effort to buy locally.  There are many reasons
why, not the least of which being that I love this town and the character
that comes with it.  I find that the things I buy may cost more downtown,
but are more special (and let's face it, less toxic) than things I can find
in a box store.  Last year all the gifts I bought for Christmas came from
stores downtown or south of the bridge on Higgins.  I am willing to spend
more to keep businesses alive in Missoula.  I feel like Missoula isn't an
over-regulated place and I think that means we trust our citizenry to make
choices with the community in mind.  I understand that the BID and City
Council are working towards making downtown a desirable and convenient place
to shop, but I don't think the way to do that is to make downtown Missoula a
whitewashed, cutsey-bootsie, over-regulated, Park City-esque mountain town.
Which is what I see happening with these laws to stop people from doing
things that a portion of the population finds annoying.  Not
dangerous-annoying.  If that is the case, then those downtown businesses can
kiss my dollars goodbye. 

Amy T. Cas

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:38 PM, <kjerrim at missoula.com> wrote:

I think the whole point I am hearing raised is enough with all these
ordinances pertaining to behavioral problems that some find annoying but
others may not.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091006/abfdfacb/attachment-0001.htm>

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
-------Please delete extra content when replying to messages--------
Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com. 

End of MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 7
******************************************

_______________________________________________
-----Please delete extra content when replying to messages------

Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091007/a0bcaede/attachment.htm>