[MissoulaGov] MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5
Everest Designs
everestdesigns at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 5 12:50:21 MDT 2009
Biking on the sidewalk should never be allowed. My two year old ran outside onto the sidewalk and was absolutely pounded into the concrete with the rider going over the bars and all of that. The child stood up with tire marks on her face and shirt. The rider climb back on in tears apologizing and rubbing his collar bone. Some people do ride nice and slow and responsibly----and a some dont. I ride alot and when I see the guy riding on the wrong way on a one way street on the wrong side I know how it makes drivers feel about cyclists. Just get off the bike and walk to that nice bike rack.
Matt
Everest Designs
1.877.754.4287
everestdesigns at yahoo.com
everestdesigns.net
--- On Mon, 10/5/09, missoulagov-request at cmslists.com <missoulagov-request at cmslists.com> wrote:
From: missoulagov-request at cmslists.com <missoulagov-request at cmslists.com>
Subject: MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5
To: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 12:00 PM
Send MissoulaGov mailing list submissions to
missoulagov at cmslists.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.cmslists.com/mailman/listinfo/missoulagov
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
missoulagov-request at cmslists.com
You can reach the person managing the list at
missoulagov-owner at cmslists.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of MissoulaGov digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
(carfreestupidity at gmail.com)
2. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (David V. Gray)
3. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (Jeremy Hood)
4. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (David Strohmaier)
5. Jaffe mail list for cynthia manning (Cynthia Manning)
6. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (David V. Gray)
7. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (Russ Fletcher)
8. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks (Rod Austin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:59:55 +0000
From: carfreestupidity at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: "Jeremy Hood" <thepoe at hotmail.com>,
missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com, "Ethel" <ethelmacd at gmail.com>,
geoffb at ism.net
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID:
<933390501-1254682466-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1611066525- at bda812.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
One thing that needs to be considered is, if we are going to ban cyclists from sidewalks, Missoula needs to provide better and safer cycling facilities on our roads.
Things have gotten a lot better in this regard and the complete streets ordinance should help. But there are still plenty of places in Missoula where even a kamikaze cyclist such as myself doesn't want to go (reserve, arthur 5th 6th, parts of broadway).
But again, we can't kick those cyclists off the sidewalk when that is the only place they may feel safe, without simultaneously providing an alternative, on the street, facility where cyclists of all skill levels can feel safe.
Thanks,
Lewis Kelley
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Hood <thepoe at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:29:37
To: ethelmacd at gmail.com<ethelmacd at gmail.com>; <geoffb at ism.net>
Cc: <missoulagov at cmslists.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
_______________________________________________
-----Please delete extra content when replying to messages------
Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:55:56 -0600
From: "David V. Gray" <hdgray at modwest.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: <carfreestupidity at gmail.com>, "'Jeremy Hood'"
<thepoe at hotmail.com>, <missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com>, "'Ethel'"
<ethelmacd at gmail.com>, <geoffb at ism.net>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <007501ca452c$b0b35220$1219f660$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have not been following this entire conversation but I would hope minors
would be allowed to ride on sidewalks anywhere. They should not be in
traffic because they are learning. Additionally if an adult is with a minor
they as well will need to be on the sidewalk to show the minor how to act
and react to situations as the minor is learning to ride.
I do not personally see why the city would wants to ban bikes on sidewalks.
I have very rarely had any problems with bikes on sidewalks as an avid.
Shouldn't the City Staff and Council be putting more energies towards the
economic downturn at this time? That is an actual problem and needs much
more attention.
Sincerely,
David V. Gray
1731 S. 11th W.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 16:28:22 -0600
From: Jeremy Hood <thepoe at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: <hdgray at modwest.com>, <carfreestupidity at gmail.com>,
<missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com>, "ethelmacd at gmail.com"
<ethelmacd at gmail.com>, <geoffb at ism.net>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <COL122-W53FC68DC134114EAA8D727CCD00 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Funny
enough you seem more likely to get hit crossing from sidewalk to sidewalk at
intersections...
I agree that this is a conversation that is ok in the respect that it could
lead to safer streets for all modes of traffic, but if we are just going to argue
about sidewalks (which seems to of just manifested in the list serve, nowhere
else) it is barely more in need of light than the dog leash thing that came up
awhile ago. I think economic downturn is a better thing to address. Funny
enough the ideas up in the air are associated with how to potentially punish
those with ill fates even more, the homeless.
Depiction of economic "helping"
As far as what to do for the economy, well that is something very hard to
approach. To be realistic about it we should be concerned about making sure
everyone can be fed with good local food, and that there are work opportunities
to make such things happen. Then try to procure other local necessities or
ability to create, as opposed to being dependent on others that are not in
state even. That way everything we HAVE to have is there for everyone. There is
an abundance of frivolous stuff we do not need to worry about. This however
brings us to problems like people not paying rent, heating bill, blah blah
blah... When the reality is that all those people needing to get paid just need
to be able to have food really. Alas not all places of residence are owned by
people in town, and many that are do not care, so things will lead to people
living without paying someone that is not local/tolerant any money. When you
start playing with out-of-state and higher money affairs they do not care, and
so the city (police) will uphold the "law" preventing anything like
local self preservation of the local people.
But who am I kidding... all that is hog wash. Let us take the long educate
everyone route because people cannot see the value of sustainability for
themselves or those around them. You know like Obama has planned out. Oh yeah
we are all just going to be in debt from getting educated, then have no way to
pay it off and no health care. Yay lets all get as poor as possible together! I
always wanted to live in Higgins.
Perhaps we should stick to all the matters we are already married too for now.
> From: hdgray at modwest.com
> To: carfreestupidity at gmail.com; thepoe at hotmail.com; missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com; ethelmacd at gmail.com; geoffb at ism.net
> CC: missoulagov at cmslists.com
> Subject: RE: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:55:56 -0600
>
> I have not been following this entire conversation but I would hope minors
> would be allowed to ride on sidewalks anywhere. They should not be in
> traffic because they are learning. Additionally if an adult is with a minor
> they as well will need to be on the sidewalk to show the minor how to act
> and react to situations as the minor is learning to ride.
>
> I do not personally see why the city would wants to ban bikes on sidewalks.
> I have very rarely had any problems with bikes on sidewalks as an avid.
>
> Shouldn't the City Staff and Council be putting more energies towards the
> economic downturn at this time? That is an actual problem and needs much
> more attention.
>
> Sincerely,
> David V. Gray
> 1731 S. 11th W.
>
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091004/2caaa88c/attachment.html>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:40:37 -0600
From: David Strohmaier <dstrohmaier at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: <hdgray at modwest.com>, <carfreestupidity at gmail.com>,
<thepoe at hotmail.com>, <missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com>,
<ethelmacd at gmail.com>, <geoffb at ism.net>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <SNT103-W47DB31CB364ABBA81B20D9A1CF0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
David and all,
For clarification, at this juncture, the city has not proposed moving forward with prohibiting bikes from sidewalks. As Chair of the City Council's Public Safety and Health Committee, I recently scheduled a discussion on the pros and cons related to prohibiting (or not) bikes from sidewalks. The consensus coming out of the meeting was that we need to better educate folks on minimizing their use of bikes on sidewalks while at the same time examining how other Montana cities have approached this issue. As a parent with two small children, I'm very sensitive to the avoiding unintended consequences (such as prohibiting a kid with training wheels from riding on a sidewalk).
Finally, those of us on the Council are frequently criticized for spending too much time on this or that issue as opposed to what someone perceives as more important concerns. On the contrary, and reflecting my view of governance, I believe that it's the Council's duty to multi-task (and address both the minutia of city government and more far-reaching initiatives), and that is precisely why we have multiple committees that oversee different departments and deal with different sorts of issues. As an elected representative, I am constantly triaging how to invest my time, but investing greater or lesser time and energy in one issue does not mean that I invest no time in another issue (which might also be of great concern to some of my constituents).
Dave
Dave Strohmaier
Missoula City Council, Ward 1
(406) 327-8911
> From: hdgray at modwest.com
> To: carfreestupidity at gmail.com; thepoe at hotmail.com; missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com; ethelmacd at gmail.com; geoffb at ism.net
> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:55:56 -0600
> CC: missoulagov at cmslists.com
> Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
>
> I have not been following this entire conversation but I would hope minors
> would be allowed to ride on sidewalks anywhere. They should not be in
> traffic because they are learning. Additionally if an adult is with a minor
> they as well will need to be on the sidewalk to show the minor how to act
> and react to situations as the minor is learning to ride.
>
> I do not personally see why the city would wants to ban bikes on sidewalks.
> I have very rarely had any problems with bikes on sidewalks as an avid.
>
> Shouldn't the City Staff and Council be putting more energies towards the
> economic downturn at this time? That is an actual problem and needs much
> more attention.
>
> Sincerely,
> David V. Gray
> 1731 S. 11th W.
>
> _______________________________________________
> -----Please delete extra content when replying to messages------
>
> Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
> Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
> List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091004/0be95ab2/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:21:01 -0600
From: Cynthia Manning <inisimee at aol.com>
Subject: [MissoulaGov] Jaffe mail list for cynthia manning
To: "missoulagov at cmslists.com" <missoulagov at cmslists.com>
Message-ID: <7F8213D9-D7D9-48A5-BB7A-85AF8C3FA831 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Please put me on bob jaffe's list serve - cynthia manning @ inisimee at aol.com
Sent from my iPod
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:19:13 -0600
From: "David V. Gray" <hdgray at modwest.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: "'David Strohmaier'" <dstrohmaier at msn.com>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <00b501ca4572$ffe338b0$ffa9aa10$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
David,
Thank you for the update on the bike topic. My children are out of training
wheels but I still would not want to see them only allowed on the street.
At age 10 and younger they still make a great deal of poor decisions. When
it comes to a game of tag between a car and a bike the car will always win.
I would like to see the city council allow bikes all the right of
pedestrians when they are on sidewalks as the state law dictates and devote
educational dollars providing courtesy training to bike riders on sidewalks
and traffic law training for streets riders.
On the other topic I have seen the amount of time the Council members spend
on issues and I am grateful for the work that they do and the business that
gets accomplished. My concern is that it appears that a great deal of time
and energy lately has been put into cell phone ordinances, banning homeless
from the downtown, discussing the appropriate locations for bike traffic and
creating more rules for the citizens of Missoula to live by. It does not
appear that making Missoula "The desired place for new and expanding
business" or creating a means that will make Missoula the leader in the
economic recovery for our state is being discussed or allocated much time by
the City Staff and Council. It would be refreshing to see the full power
and time of the city staff and Council on this issue so it was making the
news each week. From my perspective these topics have been a black hole of
effort by our government and body of leaders. This may be an incorrect view
but it has not been getting much press coverage if it is occurring. As the
Chair of the Public Safety and Health I am sure you have a great deal of
influence on what could benefit Missoula's citizens Health Care expenditures
and still make sure our Medical industry is vibrant and growing. That would
be a nice change in priority focus at this time or an issue worth allocating
more time to. Maybe issues that are not life threatening, not taxable and do
not create increases or stabilize the citizens' revenue generation could
take a back seat for a while.
Sincerely,
David V. Gray
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091004/bd43492a/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 06:49:53 -0600
From: Russ Fletcher <russ at matr.net>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: "David V. Gray" <hdgray at modwest.com>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <4AC9EB71.2080907 at matr.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
For those of you interested in the health care industry in Missoula:
*Health Care's Expanding Role In The Missoula Area Economy, 10/5,
Missoula <http://matr.net/events.phtml?showdetail=2942>*
http://matr.net/events.phtml?showdetail=2942
David V. Gray wrote:
>
> David,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the update on the bike topic. My children are out of
> training wheels but I still would not want to see them only allowed on
> the street. At age 10 and younger they still make a great deal of
> poor decisions. When it comes to a game of tag between a car and a
> bike the car will always win. I would like to see the city council
> allow bikes all the right of pedestrians when they are on sidewalks as
> the state law dictates and devote educational dollars providing
> courtesy training to bike riders on sidewalks and traffic law training
> for streets riders.
>
>
>
> On the other topic I have seen the amount of time the Council members
> spend on issues and I am grateful for the work that they do and the
> business that gets accomplished. My concern is that it appears that a
> great deal of time and energy lately has been put into cell phone
> ordinances, banning homeless from the downtown, discussing the
> appropriate locations for bike traffic and creating more rules for the
> citizens of Missoula to live by. It does not appear that making
> Missoula "The desired place for new and expanding business" or
> creating a means that will make Missoula the leader in the economic
> recovery for our state is being discussed or allocated much time by
> the City Staff and Council. It would be refreshing to see the full
> power and time of the city staff and Council on this issue so it was
> making the news each week. From my perspective these topics have been
> a black hole of effort by our government and body of leaders. This
> may be an incorrect view but it has not been getting much press
> coverage if it is occurring. As the Chair of the Public Safety and
> Health I am sure you have a great deal of influence on what could
> benefit Missoula's citizens Health Care expenditures and still make
> sure our Medical industry is vibrant and growing. That would be a
> nice change in priority focus at this time or an issue worth
> allocating more time to. Maybe issues that are not life threatening,
> not taxable and do not create increases or stabilize the citizens'
> revenue generation could take a back seat for a while.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David V. Gray
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> -----Please delete extra content when replying to messages------
>
> Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
> Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
> List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091005/9d041169/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:14:58 -0600
From: "Rod Austin" <raustin at missouladowntownbid.org>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
To: "'David V. Gray'" <hdgray at modwest.com>,
<carfreestupidity at gmail.com>, "'Jeremy Hood'" <thepoe at hotmail.com>,
<missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com>, "'Ethel'" <ethelmacd at gmail.com>,
<geoffb at ism.net>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <008901ca45df$5f7e59a0$1e7b0ce0$@org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I need to clarify that when I talk about bikes needing to be walked on
sidewalks I am referring to the urban setting only. And then kids would be
allowed there as well say 12 and under.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com
[mailto:missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com] On Behalf Of David V. Gray
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 1:56 PM
To: carfreestupidity at gmail.com; 'Jeremy Hood';
missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com; 'Ethel'; geoffb at ism.net
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09 Bikes on Sidewalks
I have not been following this entire conversation but I would hope minors
would be allowed to ride on sidewalks anywhere. They should not be in
traffic because they are learning. Additionally if an adult is with a minor
they as well will need to be on the sidewalk to show the minor how to act
and react to situations as the minor is learning to ride.
I do not personally see why the city would wants to ban bikes on sidewalks.
I have very rarely had any problems with bikes on sidewalks as an avid.
Shouldn't the City Staff and Council be putting more energies towards the
economic downturn at this time? That is an actual problem and needs much
more attention.
Sincerely,
David V. Gray
1731 S. 11th W.
_______________________________________________
-----Please delete extra content when replying to messages------
Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But
posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
-------Please delete extra content when replying to messages--------
Note: This list is NOT an official service of the City Of Missoula. But posts to this list may be entered into the public record.
Subscribe or view archives at Missoulagov.org
List Serve hosting provided by www.CedarMountainSoftware.com.
End of MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5
******************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.cmslists.com/pipermail/missoulagov/attachments/20091005/28ee3b7d/attachment.htm>
More information about the MissoulaGov
mailing list