[MissoulaGov] Biking on the sidewalk

Sat Oct 3 16:43:47 MDT 2009

Well, I cut a much narrower profile while ON my bike, thus making it easier to dodge all the homeless people on the sidewalk...

PLEASE DO NOT RIDE YOUR BIKE  ON THE 

--- On Sat, 10/3/09, missoulagov-request at cmslists.com <missoulagov-request at cmslists.com> wrote:

From: missoulagov-request at cmslists.com <missoulagov-request at cmslists.com>
Subject: MissoulaGov Digest, Vol 44, Issue 3
To: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 12:00 PM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 (Derek Goldman)
   2. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 (Sally Brown)
   3. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 (Jeremy Hood)
   4. Re: Committee Update 9-30-09 (kjerrim at missoula.com)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 17:41:01 -0600
From: Derek Goldman <derekmgold at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
To: <raustin at missouladowntownbid.org>, <jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us>,
    <missoulagov at cmslists.com>
Message-ID: <SNT114-W457731500A6AC7DEF04528DFD20 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Well, I cut a much narrower profile while ON my bike, thus making it easier to dodge all the homeless people on the sidewalk...
Seriously, Rod, I appreciate BID's support for a better bike environment downtown. Really, I do. Likewise, those of us who bike around downtown love it; we are supporters and customers of downtown businesses. 
I guess I'm just frustrated because it seems whenever there is a homeless person, tied-up dog, and now bicycle, or some other inconvenience on the sidewalk, we now get threatened with: "people will stop coming downtown" unless we enact X policy...(eg: your comments in this week's Indy). And that just strikes me as a bit over the top. 
Thanks, Derek

From: raustin at missouladowntownbid.org
To: derekmgold at hotmail.com; jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us; missoulagov at cmslists.com
Subject: RE: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:36:43 -0600

Thanks Derek. The Downtown BID is working to create a better
bicycle environment in the downtown and is very supportive of Missoula become
the premier cycle community in the nation. We have collaborated with the
cycling community to get lanes on Higgins as well as putting money up for
addition parking in the downtown that includes the new bike corral on N
Higgins. We are supportive of back-in angle parking for its safety factor for
cyclists as well as motorist. I would like you to walk your cycle on the
sidewalks however. Thanks again.

Rod

From:
missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com [mailto:missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com] On
Behalf Of Derek Goldman

Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:16 PM

To: jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us; missoulagov at cmslists.com

Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09

The businesses have nothing to complain
about: Bob's amendment is probably not even really a compromise at all, as I
suspect there are few, if ANY, stretches of downtown sidewalk that span 24 feet
or more between doorways? So, its probably still, in effect, a total ban. 

Now that the homeless, vendors and street musicians are taken care of, BID can
get on with the business of banning bicyclists, dogs, and other undesirables
from the sidewalks...

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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:47:22 -0600
From: Sally Brown <sallybrown6 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
To: Derek Goldman <derekmgold at hotmail.com>
Cc: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <4AC6910A.6080705 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

And now, besides the sleepers, beggers, dogs, bikes, musicians - we'll 
have to share the sidewalks with SMOKER's!  How about a law that says 
that everyone smoking has to stand 12 feet from any door way - then the 
smoker's and the sleepers would all be in the same place.  Perhaps the 
dogs could stay there too, tied up to the bike racks.    What about all 
the street vendors?  Maybe they are 'local color' and not sleeper 
material....

Sally Brown

Derek Goldman wrote:
> Well, I cut a much narrower profile while ON my bike, thus making it 
> easier to dodge all the homeless people on the sidewalk...
> Seriously, Rod, I appreciate BID's support for a better bike 
> environment downtown. Really, I do. Likewise, those of us who bike 
> around downtown love it; we are supporters and customers of downtown 
> businesses.
> I guess I'm just frustrated because it seems whenever there is a 
> homeless person, tied-up dog, and now bicycle, or some other 
> inconvenience on the sidewalk, we now get threatened with: "people 
> will stop coming downtown" unless we enact X policy...(eg: your 
> comments in this week's Indy 
> <http://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/missoula/bikes/Content?oid=1170855>). 
> And that just strikes me as a bit over the top.
> Thanks, Derek
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> From: raustin at missouladowntownbid.org
> To: derekmgold at hotmail.com; jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us; 
> missoulagov at cmslists.com
> Subject: RE: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:36:43 -0600
>
> Thanks Derek. The Downtown BID is working to create a better bicycle 
> environment in the downtown and is very supportive of Missoula become 
> the premier cycle community in the nation. We have collaborated with 
> the cycling community to get lanes on Higgins as well as putting money 
> up for addition parking in the downtown that includes the new bike 
> corral on N Higgins. We are supportive of back-in angle parking for 
> its safety factor for cyclists as well as motorist. I would like you 
> to walk your cycle on the sidewalks however. Thanks again.
>
>  
>
> Rod
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com 
> [mailto:missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com] *On Behalf Of *Derek Goldman
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:16 PM
> *To:* jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us; missoulagov at cmslists.com
> *Subject:* Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
>
>  
>
> The businesses have nothing to complain about: Bob's amendment is 
> probably not even really a compromise at all, as I suspect there are 
> few, if ANY, stretches of downtown sidewalk that span 24 feet or more 
> between doorways? So, its probably still, in effect, a total ban.
> Now that the homeless, vendors and street musicians are taken care of, 
> BID can get on with the business of banning bicyclists, dogs, and 
> other undesirables from the sidewalks...
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign 
> up now. <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 21:11:55 -0600
From: Jeremy Hood <thepoe at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
To: <derekmgold at hotmail.com>, <raustin at missouladowntownbid.org>, Jason
    Wiener    <jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us>, <missoulagov at cmslists.com>
Message-ID: <COL122-W36FE77C15CE4D6E8DF1481CCD10 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Make the street safer for bicyclists so they are only on the sidewalk to park... Plus that article in the Indy, uh how many people have been hit by a bicyclists lately?

On the UM campus there was a small political battle a few years ago about bicyclists on the sidewalk. There was extensive letters in the Kaimin about it. A lot of the concerns where people talking about almost being hit (usually more about hating the demographic of bike riders though). I would like to point out the almost. Never was there a report of being hit. Never have I seen anyone hit someone else on the sidewalks. 

Do I think that some people are reckless and horrible at riding a bicycle? Yes but there has to be 67 million motorists or more that I think the same thing about but we are not trying to make a new place for them to drive. You can not punish everyone for the frequency of extremely few potentials that may not ever become anything. 

From: derekmgold at hotmail.com
To: raustin at missouladowntownbid.org; jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us; missoulagov at cmslists.com
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 17:41:01 -0600
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09

Well, I cut a much narrower profile while ON my bike, thus making it easier to dodge all the homeless people on the sidewalk...
Seriously, Rod, I appreciate BID's support for a better bike environment downtown. Really, I do. Likewise, those of us who bike around downtown love it; we are supporters and customers of downtown businesses. 
I guess I'm just frustrated because it seems whenever there is a homeless person, tied-up dog, and now bicycle, or some other inconvenience on the sidewalk, we now get threatened with: "people will stop coming downtown" unless we enact X policy...(eg: your comments in this week's Indy). And that just strikes me as a bit over the top. 
Thanks, Derek
    Send

From: raustin at missouladowntownbid.org
To: derekmgold at hotmail.com; jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us; missoulagov at cmslists.com
Subject: RE: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:36:43 -0600

Thanks Derek. The Downtown BID is working to create a better
bicycle environment in the downtown and is very supportive of Missoula become
the premier cycle community in the nation. We have collaborated with the
cycling community to get lanes on Higgins as well as putting money up for
addition parking in the downtown that includes the new bike corral on N
Higgins. We are supportive of back-in angle parking for its safety factor for
cyclists as well as motorist. I would like you to walk your cycle on the
sidewalks however. Thanks again.

Rod

From:
missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com [mailto:missoulagov-bounces at cmslists.com] On
Behalf Of Derek Goldman

Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:16 PM

To: jwiener at ci.missoula.mt.us; missoulagov at cmslists.com

Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09

The businesses have nothing to complain
about: Bob's amendment is probably not even really a compromise at all, as I
suspect there are few, if ANY, stretches of downtown sidewalk that span 24 feet
or more between doorways? So, its probably still, in effect, a total ban. 

Now that the homeless, vendors and street musicians are taken care of, BID can
get on with the business of banning bicyclists, dogs, and other undesirables
from the sidewalks...

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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 11:45:25 -0600
From: kjerrim at missoula.com
Subject: Re: [MissoulaGov] Committee Update 9-30-09
To: missoulagov at cmslists.com
Message-ID: <20091003114525.wfor8bn2o8kg0s8k at webmail.missoula.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=ISO-8859-1;    DelSp="Yes";
    format="flowed"

As usual no news is good news if you are marginalized low income and  
possibly exeriencing homelessness.  Between the newspaper article last  
week and comments here and else where I don't see a whole lot of  
community building going on. All this lumping together of different  
populations of people and different problems is always unfortunate.  
Individuals who are experiencing homelessness, chronic alcoholics and  
counter culture kids passing through town cannot be held responsible  
for the "ruin" of downtown.  That seems like a real stretch to me. And  
as mentioned in Bobs original update, lets all quit saying how awful  
it is downtown because thats certainly not good for business  
regardless of ones experience there.

It is clear that a number of downtown business owners are experiencing  
problems with behavior some of which is illegal and that the behavior  
does need to be addressed. I believe their are also many downtown  
business owners who are not having problems with behavior. Likely it  
depends on your location. One thing I have found in life is that its  
very hard to curb bad behavior in other people be they children,  
friends or strangers. It is not however difficult to mitigate illegal  
behavior. As I have mentioned several times in the course of the last  
several months we have a law- the states disorderly conduct law- that  
could be used to address most of what is plaguing business owners and  
those who find downtown to be a "gauntlet." But that means you have to  
call the police and report the behavior. Not call a downtown  
ambassador. I am perplexed by that whole phenomena. Why are people  
calling BID about this. Is BID an arm of the police? Further, why are  
the proposal of these ordinances-panhandling and ped interference  
relying on stats from BID?  I want to see the raw data from the  
police. How many unduplicated complaints about how many unduplicated  
individuals were received. Was the states disorderly conduct law used  
to deal with it. If not why. Jim Nugent wrote a very extensive opinion  
on the disorderly conduct law and how it might be used. Its on the  
citys website for anyone interested. Now that the Panhandling  
ordinance is passed, data should be collected and culled so that as we  
move forward we can evaluate if that ordinance effects any relief for  
the businesses experiencing problems.

Another thing I have learned in life is that we all find different  
things irritating and in this regard one cannot ordinance their way  
out of not irritating someone. Both ordinances will be ineffective in  
curbing the actions of individuals who are downtown passed out on the  
side walk or sleeping on the side walk who are chronic alcoholics. It  
would be more cost effective to house these individuals using a  
transitional housing voucher until they can get a federally funded  
shelter plus care voucher. Alcoholism is a disease. The current real  
change monies could be used to do this or the city could put forth  
some money. As for those kids passing through each year on their  
Hunter Thompson voyage who want to be seen and perceived as counter  
culture, whats the problem? They have a right to hang out on the side  
walk as long as they are not doing something illegal. Just because  
some find it offensive is mute. If they are doing something illegal or  
harrassing call the police. Otherwise live and let live. This is  
present in all major metropolitan citys and it doesnt dissuade me from  
walking down 1st ave in seattle.  I do not feel that current direction  
of some of the changes downtown is in keeping with the Missoula that  
people come to visit. People come from around the world to see James  
Crumley's Missoula- to experience Charlies, to see the Lee Nye  
"Missoulacana". To be in an eclectic environment. Trying to make  
Missoula the next Vail or park city is not going to be productive in  
the long run. Were a college town and haven of free thinkers. Having  
all this flap going on introduces an atmosphere that it neither  
conducive to the sense of community nor reflective of Missoula's  
unique, eclectic attributes. Lets move on and use the laws we have to  
curb illegal behavior.

Incidently, from a historical perspective I find it interesting that  
this "problem" with "vagrancy" hasn't changed much since the late  
1880s. One city council members conclusion at the city council meeting  
that passed the panhandling ordinance(I'll paraphrase here) that the  
ordinance wasnt just about aggressive panhandling but about people not  
wanting to see it while they shop really opitimizes the primary intent  
of the ordinances. This isn't much different then the intent of the  
original Poor Farm that was created by the city and operated between  
1886 and 1936 on the site of the current Pine View Park and  
Rattlesnake school. Historical documents indicate that the Poor Farm  
was created because vagrancy wasn't good for business.  So all this is  
nothing new.  But we could use a new approach. Let?s go back to the  
drawing board on this one and collect some data and look at long term  
solutions that will creatively address problems downtown, rather than  
voting in a ineffective ordinance that could possibly set a tone that  
is not part of the traditional inclusive spirit of Missoula.  Kate  
Jerrim Ybarra

------------------------------

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